question.

pennsyltuckycowboy · 03-10-2010, 02:57 PM

so i was just looking thru the kingsnakes venomous classifieds as i always do just to look at pics,and it brought a question to mind...
the banded rocks rattlers are threatened so you can't collect them or bother in AZ.but since you can only own native venomous,could you purchase a captive bred banded rock legally?

viborero · 03-10-2010, 03:05 PM

You can't keep one, period, regardless of it's origin without a permit.

MikeB · 03-10-2010, 03:09 PM

Yes you can, just not while living in AZ.

Justin Bagby · 03-10-2010, 03:18 PM

indeed you are correct mike

viborero · 03-10-2010, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB

Yes you can, just not while living in AZ.

Touché, good sir. I assumed the poster lives in AZ.

Andyr · 03-10-2010, 06:14 PM

No Diego, the Poster just hangs on the wall!!! HaHaHa (couldn't resist)

feflicker · 03-10-2010, 09:38 PM

We really need the proper authorities to revisit these bans on certain species in AZ. From what I understand not much science is behind the restrictions. But that's a hot topic that will surely start a huge debate, so maybe not for this thread lol...

JJFeldner · 03-10-2010, 10:34 PM

Cowboy wrote "...banded rocks rattlers are threatened ..."

Wrong language. That snake is not threatened but because of bad science, nay, no science at all, it is protected. Of the four protected rattlesnakes, I would say only one might be considered threatened at some point with proper study and that is Crotalus p. pricei. The other three are pretty much generalists and do not deserve protection.

pennsyltuckycowboy · 03-11-2010, 01:33 PM

man you guys are quick,i do live in Az,but just recently moved.like i said i just happened to see them for sale,so it just brought the question to mind.it's not actually something i was considering just curious about the complexities of the laws and such.thanks again for the quick and insightful replies.

leosweeny · 03-11-2010, 03:52 PM

I was led to believe that the abysus was the only truly endangered species that is currently protected.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I have never seen a wild willardi although I have only been in there habitat 3-4 times. However I have seen over 100 klauberi " all in one location in the Chiris over a 5 year time period" and 4 pricei "the 4 pricei were at barfoot 20 years ago and seen in less then 10 minutes after we arrived"

feflicker · 03-11-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leosweeny

I was led to believe that the abysus was the only truly endangered species that is currently protected.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I have never seen a wild willardi although I have only been in there habitat 3-4 times. However I have seen over 100 klauberi " all in one location in the Chiris over a 5 year time period" and 4 pricei "the 4 pricei were at barfoot 20 years ago and seen in less then 10 minutes after we arrived"

Abyssus aren't protected in AZ as far as I know. Jerry, are they on the endangered species list?

JJFeldner · 03-11-2010, 05:47 PM

These are the "protected" rattlesnakes in AZ, only one of which, Crotalus p. pricei, the Twin-spotted Rattlesnake, I would consider to be "sensitive" because of habitat but not endangered.

Crotalus w. willardi Ridge-nosed Rattlesnake
" Crotalus willardi obscurus is listed as THREATENED under the Endangered Species Act. It is against Federal law to harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect Crotalus willardi obscurus or to attempt to engage in any such conduct." (from AZPARC Website)
C. lepidus klauberi Rock Rattlesnake
Sistrurus catenatus Massasauga

Note: Crotalus willardi obscurus is listed as threatened under federal law, not state law. In any case, when Marty was working on the Animas Project, he caught 13 in one day which were then implanted with transmitters. This ssp barely gets into AZ along the western flank of the Peloncillos.

Crotalus oreganus abyssus is NOT protected.

leosweeny · 03-11-2010, 08:55 PM

I was misinformed then. I was told by someone whom I thought was an expert. That they were. So could you go to the Grand Canyon and collect 1? Or is it a national park throughout its range and therefore protected in that manner? Could this be why he said they were protected?

JJFeldner · 03-11-2010, 09:38 PM

this>>> http://www.reptilesofaz.org/Snakes-S...-oreganus.html

Of course nothing can be taken from a National Park without a permit but C. o. abyssus inhabits areas outside the Park which are not protected.

You're really dealing with some expert there.

azatrox · 03-12-2010, 06:13 AM

Abyssus INSIDE the GC = protected

Abyssus OUTSIDE the GC = not protected

Again, it's the park (GC) not the species that is protected.

As to the original question, klauberi are dirt common in sutiable habitats in Az...Often times I've made trips to their habitat and they're the ONLY snake I've seen...

Why are they "protected"? Because "management" is much easier when you just ban something as opposed to actively manage it.

For the most part, AzG&F is a POLITICAL body, not a scientific one.

-Kris

leosweeny · 03-12-2010, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJFeldner

this>>> http://www.reptilesofaz.org/Snakes-S...-oreganus.html

Of course nothing can be taken from a National Park without a permit but C. o. abyssus inhabits areas outside the Park which are not protected.

You're really dealing with some expert there.

Well he was a head reptile reptile keeper at a zoo. I won't mention witch one to protect his anonymity. Where else might you find them. I heard they were protected so I didn't pursue the matter. I would love to find one. I was under the impression that the only pure specimens were at the bottom of the canyon.

azatrox · 03-12-2010, 03:48 PM

Your friend is misinformed. There are pure blooded abyssus outside of the GC park boundaries.

-Kris

billW · 03-12-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azatrox

Your friend is misinformed. There are pure blooded abyssus outside of the GC park boundaries.

-Kris

+1
They are found WELL outside of the park boundaries.

JJFeldner · 03-12-2010, 08:04 PM

some of their habitat is on the Navajo Res and if you get caught there, they can do what they want with you. They are considered a separate nation and they will probably confiscate your car and then they can let their judiciary do what they want.

leosweeny · 03-13-2010, 08:49 PM

Well the only thing I can think is I totally misunderstood his meaning. I think he must have just stessed the fact that I should say nothing about the one he had. I thought they were protected. I guess he just ment that he collected his not quit legally.

feflicker · 03-18-2010, 12:43 AM

All these rules, guess my GC Abyssus trip is out the window. I'll have to get more creative with the map I suppose.

03-10-2010, 02:57 PM	#1
pennsyltuckycowboy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Age: 30 Posts: 47 Thanks: 8 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	question. so i was just looking thru the kingsnakes venomous classifieds as i always do just to look at pics,and it brought a question to mind... the banded rocks rattlers are threatened so you can't collect them or bother in AZ.but since you can only own native venomous,could you purchase a captive bred banded rock legally?

03-10-2010, 03:05 PM	#2
viborero AHA Current Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Temple, Texas Age: 35 Posts: 2,054 Thanks: 1,026 Thanked 848 Times in 302 Posts	You can't keep one, period, regardless of it's origin without a permit. __________________ Diego Ortiz

03-10-2010, 03:09 PM	#3
MikeB AHA Current Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Coolidge, AZ Posts: 922 Thanks: 123 Thanked 373 Times in 132 Posts	Yes you can, just not while living in AZ. __________________ Mike barker "There is no sanctuary" --Logan 5

03-10-2010, 03:18 PM	#4
Justin Bagby AHA Current Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phoenix Az Posts: 226 Thanks: 184 Thanked 106 Times in 54 Posts	indeed you are correct mike __________________ JB Herp Supply http://jbherp.com/ AHA Member since 2001

03-10-2010, 06:14 PM	#6
Andyr AHA Current Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: scottsdale Age: 47 Posts: 274 Thanks: 4 Thanked 22 Times in 9 Posts	No Diego, the Poster just hangs on the wall!!! HaHaHa (couldn't resist) __________________ Andy ><> AHA Blacksheep

03-10-2010, 09:38 PM	#7
feflicker AHA Current Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 403 Thanks: 169 Thanked 148 Times in 93 Posts	We really need the proper authorities to revisit these bans on certain species in AZ. From what I understand not much science is behind the restrictions. But that's a hot topic that will surely start a huge debate, so maybe not for this thread lol... __________________ Looking to adopt: 1.1 C. Tigris, 0.1 C. Molossus, 0.1 C.Mitchelli

03-10-2010, 10:34 PM	#8
JJFeldner Sergeant at Arms Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tempe, AZ Age: 71 Posts: 4,212 Thanks: 725 Thanked 1,386 Times in 631 Posts	Pennsyltucky>>> Cowboy wrote "...banded rocks rattlers are threatened ..." Wrong language. That snake is not threatened but because of bad science, nay, no science at all, it is protected. Of the four protected rattlesnakes, I would say only one might be considered threatened at some point with proper study and that is Crotalus p. pricei. The other three are pretty much generalists and do not deserve protection. __________________ Sergeant-at-Arms

03-11-2010, 01:33 PM	#9
pennsyltuckycowboy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Age: 30 Posts: 47 Thanks: 8 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	man you guys are quick,i do live in Az,but just recently moved.like i said i just happened to see them for sale,so it just brought the question to mind.it's not actually something i was considering just curious about the complexities of the laws and such.thanks again for the quick and insightful replies.

03-11-2010, 03:52 PM	#10
leosweeny Registered User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 131 Thanks: 432 Thanked 16 Times in 14 Posts	I was led to believe that the abysus was the only truly endangered species that is currently protected. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have never seen a wild willardi although I have only been in there habitat 3-4 times. However I have seen over 100 klauberi " all in one location in the Chiris over a 5 year time period" and 4 pricei "the 4 pricei were at barfoot 20 years ago and seen in less then 10 minutes after we arrived"

03-11-2010, 05:47 PM	#12
JJFeldner Sergeant at Arms Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tempe, AZ Age: 71 Posts: 4,212 Thanks: 725 Thanked 1,386 Times in 631 Posts	Negative!! These are the "protected" rattlesnakes in AZ, only one of which, *Crotalus p. pricei, the Twin-spotted Rattlesnake, I would consider to be "sensitive" because of habitat but not endangered. Crotalus w. willardi* Ridge-nosed Rattlesnake " *Crotalus willardi obscurus* is listed as THREATENED under the Endangered Species Act. It is against Federal law to harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect Crotalus willardi obscurus or to attempt to engage in any such conduct." (from AZPARC Website) C. lepidus klauberi Rock Rattlesnake Sistrurus catenatus Massasauga Note: *Crotalus willardi obscurus* is listed as threatened under federal law, not state law. In any case, when Marty was working on the Animas Project, he caught 13 in one day which were then implanted with transmitters. This ssp barely gets into AZ along the western flank of the Peloncillos. Crotalus oreganus abyssus is NOT protected. __________________ Sergeant-at-Arms Last edited by JJFeldner; 03-11-2010 at 09:35 PM.

03-11-2010, 08:55 PM	#13
leosweeny Registered User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 131 Thanks: 432 Thanked 16 Times in 14 Posts	I was misinformed then. I was told by someone whom I thought was an expert. That they were. So could you go to the Grand Canyon and collect 1? Or is it a national park throughout its range and therefore protected in that manner? Could this be why he said they were protected?

03-11-2010, 09:38 PM	#14
JJFeldner Sergeant at Arms Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tempe, AZ Age: 71 Posts: 4,212 Thanks: 725 Thanked 1,386 Times in 631 Posts	Just read>>> this>>> http://www.reptilesofaz.org/Snakes-S...-oreganus.html Of course nothing can be taken from a National Park without a permit but C. o. abyssus inhabits areas outside the Park which are not protected. You're really dealing with some expert there. __________________ Sergeant-at-Arms

03-12-2010, 06:13 AM	#15
azatrox Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Phoenix Age: 34 Posts: 814 Thanks: 535 Thanked 902 Times in 316 Posts	Jerry's correct. Abyssus INSIDE the GC = protected Abyssus OUTSIDE the GC = not protected Again, it's the park (GC) not the species that is protected. As to the original question, klauberi are dirt common in sutiable habitats in Az...Often times I've made trips to their habitat and they're the ONLY snake I've seen... Why are they "protected"? Because "management" is much easier when you just ban something as opposed to actively manage it. For the most part, AzG&F is a POLITICAL body, not a scientific one. -Kris

03-12-2010, 03:48 PM	#17
azatrox Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Phoenix Age: 34 Posts: 814 Thanks: 535 Thanked 902 Times in 316 Posts	Leo... Your friend is misinformed. There are pure blooded abyssus outside of the GC park boundaries. -Kris

03-12-2010, 08:04 PM	#19
JJFeldner Sergeant at Arms Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Tempe, AZ Age: 71 Posts: 4,212 Thanks: 725 Thanked 1,386 Times in 631 Posts	Of course,>>> some of their habitat is on the Navajo Res and if you get caught there, they can do what they want with you. They are considered a separate nation and they will probably confiscate your car and then they can let their judiciary do what they want. __________________ Sergeant-at-Arms

03-13-2010, 08:49 PM	#20
leosweeny Registered User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 131 Thanks: 432 Thanked 16 Times in 14 Posts	Well the only thing I can think is I totally misunderstood his meaning. I think he must have just stessed the fact that I should say nothing about the one he had. I thought they were protected. I guess he just ment that he collected his not quit legally.

03-18-2010, 12:43 AM	#21
feflicker AHA Current Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 403 Thanks: 169 Thanked 148 Times in 93 Posts	All these rules, guess my GC Abyssus trip is out the window. I'll have to get more creative with the map I suppose. __________________ Looking to adopt: 1.1 C. Tigris, 0.1 C. Molossus, 0.1 C.Mitchelli

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